Il cuore ha sempre ragione
Alfa Romeo Vs Porsche/VW/Bmw...etc german ''lack of passion'' brands.
Beetle was the father of 356 the first porsches car in the end of 40es(in that period AR was constructing luxury and expensive cars like 6c2500).1300 version of the first 356 used the same block with VW such us 1050 & 1600 versions of 356.912 and after 911 were more hard to drive even than pure supercars of ferrari in the same period.And before the period of electronics/4wd came owners of porsche locked them in the garage when it was raining(911 RennSport of 73).Don't speak about the turbo-lag of the first 991-turbo.In 1950 AR produced its first mass production car the 1900 in sprint & super sprint versions and it costed also a lot than porsche 356.In the mid of 50es AR introduces Giulietta 1300 Sprint & Spider the first AR’s with low price/engine cubism in order to compete with 356.In the same period Porsche introduces 1600cc of 356 but it couldn’t even match the performances of a giulietta sprint 1300cc.1900 sprint/spider are replaced from more expensive 2000/2600 sprint/spider and Giulietta acquired a 1600cc engine and changes its name to Giulia GT Sprint.Porsche introduces 356 2000 & in the end of 60es introduces 912/911 with 2.0lt engine and then follows 2,4lt to replace 356…in the same period the production of 2000/2600sprint/spider ends and AR introduces 33 stradale & Montreal and because of the energy crisis the sales of supercars drops…33 dominates in the races.Porsche introduces 911 turbo and Ferrari the first V12 entrylevel the 308 and it’s the first time that a Porsche who was constructing small cars can be compared with a Ferrari despite it is entry level.If we want to see a real supercar from Porsche we must wait until the end of 80es with 959.So it is ridiculous for some alfisti to reduce the history of AR by compairing it with Porsche which is a company originated from the rib of a VW Beetle.
Ceramic brakes is not Porsche's innovation as some mags report but made in italy by Brembo.250 GTO '62 was until 1987 the most expensive car in public sale.Then the first place passed to Bugatti Type 41 Royale of 1931 with 5.500.000£,and from 2001 the first place belongs to one of the 2 remaining 8c2900b LM Touring Superleggera of 1938 for 11.000.000$....even one of the 3 remaining F50 GT1 costs under 9.000.000$.Porsche will never gain the HERITAGE of Alfa/Bugatti/Ferrari/Bentley and lets say Mercedes.Ferrari is the only company that was born after the war and gives you the emotion of the heroic automotive period(it excisted before war as AR's racing team and all nowadays Ferrari's G.turismo continues AR's concept before 1951.Heritage is sth very important for cars that overcome the price of 1.000.000$.For example Mc Laren F1 is an amazing car but in six years of production it sold only 80mcf1 out of 100 that were constructed...you see for collectors Mclaren's name means nothing!For 3 decates AR(historical rival of Bugatti & Bentley) was constructing cars in the price of nowadays Ferrari/ bugatti.Ferrari the son of AR become famous cause scuderia Ferrari was the official grandprix racing team of AR between 1929 & 1934,12/13 years before Ferrari produced it’s first road car.
911 was born as an adaption of an entry level car VW beetle....uses a layout used in a low-price car in the 30-50's....cause was the less costly lay out to produce is rear engined/rwd(37/63 and can reach 39/61 in turbo versions)....in those times was very costly have fwd/frontengine(and even now rwd rear engine remain the less costly even if rarely used)...even today use a front suspension scheme 'mcpherson strut' that is odd for a proper sportcar(should have double wishbone...and porsche supercars like carrera GT use double wishbone) and the rear multilink is worse than those of Golf but with the help of electronics there is no problem..even the 4wd used in 911 carrera4 with viscous coupling similar to that used by panda..to make an example is not an example of sofistication,dont mention the slow steering wheel with 3 turns....911 is a car with exceptional set up...they work decades on it's set up but technically is just over mediocrity and many solutions that porsche explains as tradition in reality have to do with low production cost and high profit....
Porsche appart that has in all models a less stiff body than brera(Brera has a 20% stiffer body than 159...in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50 in torsional rigidity level)........uses in carrera 4 a viscous coupling 4wd far less sofisticated than the three differential with torsen-c central 4wd used by Brera...except of all that porsche cayman/boxster and 911 use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle...so even the suspension scheme of Brera double wishbone front-multilink rear is more sofisticated than that of porsche with mcpherson strut front and multilink rear..in that we have to add the far quicker steering wheel of Brera derives from that of the actual 147/156 GTA that was the faster in the world in pair with some TVR models with 1,75turns....911 and porsche in general have very slow steering wheels with 2,9-3,2 turns..
The product was so good that guide the maserati management to make the choice to develop a 911 carrera level priced(80.000 euro) maserati entry level model based on Brera model(for now the project is frozen due to economic reasons)...Boxster and Cayman is not state of the art neither as handling...Aston Martin has a far longer wheelbase and a more GT set up than 911 carrera S...so in track surely a car like 911 would be advantaged specially if the car is not state of the art on it;s set up...V8 Vantage would make better if follow the quattroporte and 612 example with more weight in rear axle...that could help in a car with long wheelbase...and would give better performance...Cayman is stiff but is based on 986/987 a project launched in market in 1996...first of all so the body is stiff but is half as stiff as Brera for example...
after Cayman handles better than a carrera but not as good as a carrera 4...you would b eimpressed by the performance of a good 4wd...and brera has a state of the art 4wd...much more sofisticated than the viscous coupling one of 996/997..
After as the 911 has a mcpherson strut as front suspension not the best choice for a sportcar...
Porsches philosophy is high profit with low cost cause........
1995/2006 Porsche
-Boxster 986/Boxster 987/Cayman
-996/997
-Cayenne
Carrera GT
3 models build in the base of a restyled VW 2 type 807/Ulysse...and Boxster/911 have beyond 40% of the parts in common....
1995/2006 Ferrari
-360/F430
-575/550/superamerica
-612
-F50
-Enzo Ferrari/F
-F599
2 completely new models and 3 new to replace the series.
1995/2006 Aston Martin
-DB9
-Vanquish
-V8 Vantage
Despite have small numbers it introduces new models and not facelifts.
Jaguar 1995/2005
-X Type
-XK 1996
-XK
-XJ 1995
-XJ
-S Type
6 models of completely new series… against the 3 of Porsche which were specially built in the same period.
Porsche facelifts.
Boxster 986...1996.Restyled in 2004 with 987.
911 986........1997..............//.......... 2004
Cayman & boxster are the restyled/coupe versions of 997(1996).
Cayenne is a masked VW Touareg with only the V8(turbo) made from Porsche.
986/87 (boxter) has great parts of the platform & 60% parts in common with 996/997(911) of 1997…. they are not new models but heavy restyling of the previous models that go back in 90es.In order to see a totally new model we have to wait until 2009 with panamera(4 door coupe)
AR race wins
(Without GTV6, 75, Alfetta in ETCC; 75, 155 in BTCC, 1750 in 24h Nurburgring)…..and you avoid to speak about AR wins in prewar period…..you should know that those wins in historic events made AR the most important company for collectors not Touring races from 1965!...but ok lets speak about most recent touring races cause when AR was winning Maserati/Bugatti in prewar races Bmw was constructing engines for aeroplanes.
1965
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 49
BMW 44
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 2
1966
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 51
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 31,5
1967
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo
BMW not include
1969
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 78
BMW 36
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 76,5
1970
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 63
Alfa Romeo 46
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 60
BMW 30
1971
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
BMW 28
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 35
1972
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 91
BMW 85
1973
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 94
BMW 62
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120
1974
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 61
Alfa Romeo 34
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 90
1975
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 47
Alfa Romeo don’t race
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1976
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 115
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 135
BMW 85
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 30
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140
1977
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 32
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 150
Alfa Romeo 137
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 133
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 160
1978
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 170
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 152
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140
1979
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 172
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1980
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo 68
1981
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1982
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 155
1983
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 165
1984
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 152
1985
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 200 (257)
BMW 139
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 114 (140)
1986
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 73
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 160
AR wins with smaller engines…In the battle ALFA GTV 2.5 vs BMW 635 AR is winner and in the battle ALFA GTA (GTAm) vs BMW 2002 AR is again winner.Bmw/Porsche when compared to AR’s history is a total ZERO with ZERO interest fOR collectors….except James Deen Porsche 550 (i am just joking)…but speaking about history Audi’s is even below ZERO and more embarrassing for automotive history!
Brera/spider,z4,slk,boxster/cayman,TT belong in the same category independently to their architecture.Porsche has a traditional rivalry with AR that started with 356/ giulietta sprint & spider in 50es.In that period Porsche did not have equally powerful cars to Alfa Romeo 1900 & 2000/2600 Sprint & Spider.A rivalry that exists today between porsche club & alfa club of usa....Boxster uses McPherson in front,slow steering wheel and 10years old frame(1996).Brera is 4,4 times more rigid than Boxster and 2t more than Cayman.TT is an unacceptable car...it uses the same mechanical parts with Golf IV/Leon/Toledo/Octavia/A3-->McPherson/knee action/fake 4wd with haldex and multilink that was recalled (twice and it was fitted with esp) in 1999 cause it broke down and caused death accidents....also cause of bad aerodynamic it tumbled in high speeds...what a perfect car only when compared to a city car like ATOS!According to testers ferrari/maserati-Dario Benuzzi 159/Βrera Q4 have simiral handling to quattroporte/gransport.Some people say that Brera is heavy....i want to inform them that Brera 3.2 fitted with V8 of maserati gransport weights less than a maserati coupe/gransport (despite having Q4).Speaking of German cars 7 & S class are the most unreliable cars in the world with the most electronic problems which their owners know well....i remember characteristically when a series 7 was immobilised and the mechanics(?) found the problem after 2 weeks of searching.
5 series after a car crash costs a fortune...cause the stupid choice of Bmw to use chassis from 2 materials & combined with the complicated aircraft way of assembling it was demolished in euroncap crashtest...3 stars only in the first tests is very poor rating...that cause a headache to insurance companies in Usa and most of them do not assure 5/6 series...it is better to throw 5/6 in rubbish after a car crash rather than pay for repairing.
Some people don't like to hear it but Porsche's technical solutions are antiquated and it is the company with the worse value for money...after bugatti/bentley/lamborghini,even scoda is the company in grouppo Vag with great history....more important than Audi's/vw/seat....i want say anything...i will remind you that the fist mass production car with translaxe was a scoda.
Brera has a 15% stiffer body than 159...207.000 daNM/rad(2.070.000 NM/rad) or 36.100 ΝΜ/deg......in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50/maserati quattroporte......sth amazing for this segment.Cayman has half the t.r. sth that is natural cause it is not a total new product but it is based in the 10years old chassis of Boxster with all the compromises.Except of all that porsche cayman use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle sth that affects the turn in accurancy and combined with the traditional slow steering wheel of Porsche doen't help sport driving behaviour.I remind that even the conventional versions of brera & spider 3.2JTS Q4 decelarate 100-0 in 35,5m which is 1.2m better than the sport version of Boxster S(36,7m)....& 1,9m from Spider's 3.2JTS Q4 rival,Boxster(37,4m).Also Brera uses double wishbone front-multilink rear..in that we have to add the quickest steering wheel in its seg. and the most sophisticated 4wd Q4 II (according to professors of automotive press like Serge Bellu or Μichele Fenu) first with Torsen-C II in the market.The central differential can create 20% blocking effect in the front differential sth that eliminates the traditional oversteer of 4wd cars in thick turns.Some ignorant journalists try to compare Brera 3.2 Q4 with Evo/Wrx sti in order to drug in the mad but their technical specifications of these cars do not impress me.It is very easy with a stiff suspension and expensive 4wd even in a car with mediocore suspension/chassis to achieve competitive performances....the hard thing is to combine ultimate handling/driving behaviour with roll quality/comfort....like Alfa Romeo does...sth that requires great frame in all sectors and not only in setup.Don't even mention the mediocore chassis of TT same with Octavia/Leon/Toledo/Golf IV/A3 and the fake 4wd with haldex
Brera is the name of a high class neighborhood in the centre of Milan,but is more famous as the name of world fame academy of good arts and because
Alfa romeo wanted to take advantage of the logical consequence it's name creates,decided to make presentations of Alfa Romeo Brera with invitations in an art gallery.Moreover alfa romeo's are cars that suits best the definition
''sculptural work of art in 4 wheels''.....first from these events took place before one week and others will follow in all the important markets.
Alfa will return in USA with the facelift2008 Brera & Spider as MY2009 US models, but that means that the company launch is for 2008 otherways we would talk about my2010 models.The pricing will be at the same level with the BMWs, take a look at Z4 Coupe 3.0si and Z4 Roadster 3.0si prices, just to take a glimpse of Brera/Spider 3.2JTS pricing.3.2 v6 evolution will boost 290hp.
New engines
First to put an end in speculations, Holden does not design engines, the new 3.6V6 used by the Holden Commodore and called "alloytec" by Holden, is the all new high tech 3.6V6 called HFV6 "High Feature V6" in the US by Cadillac, and Cadillac not Holden was the first GM brand to use it(in CTS,SRX & STS), this engine is part of a new family of modular engines called Global V6, product of the former JV between Fiat & GM called Fiat-GM Powertrain, ofcourse except the european Turin based Fiat-GM Powertrain, North American GM Powertrain participate to the r&d of this new modular engine family, product of this JV is the Cadillac 255bhp(258ps) 3.6 HFV6(called alloytec by holden in Australia) Alfa's 260ps 3.2V6 JTS and Saab's 2.8V6 Turbo 230ps/255ps.The common block of these engines was designed in order to satisfy all the different applications, and it's 60° V architecture is a classic for Alfa, the busso is a 60° all alloy V6 too, the Alfa V6 JTS ofcourse uses different heads with stoichiometric direct injection(is a bit different and sportier than classic GDI(which will see in some other GM's V6 global application),Alfa is the first house that use that type of GDI and till now only Lexus use it too in it's new V6 family) and Twinphaser dual VVT, and other modification and accessories that make it differ substantially from the GM cousins..the heads of the new V6 JTS are designed in order to accomodate in the future the awarded Multiair electronic valve control for the MY2010, before the Multiair revolution which is scheduled for late 2009, we will have a new step for the JTS engines in late 2007 for the MY2008, the 3.2V6 JTS will get an upgrade to 290ps (286bhp), and this upgraded version of the 3.2JTS will be the version you will see in the other shore of the atlantic.
The choice to manufacture Alfa's V6 JTS in the new Port Melbourne plant and not in the St.Catharines Ontario plant that manufacture as well the V6 global, was a choice of quality, the new plant in australia could assure a better respect of alfa romeo's specifications, the engine is shipped partly assembled to Italy, the final assembly of the V6 JTS engines is made in Alfa Romeo's Pomigliano d'Arco plant.
First of all Holden doesn't even have a powertrain department(use GM engines)...the new V6 Global family is a JV project between Fiat and GM a Fiat-GM Powertrain project...and in the fiat gm powertrain r&d department the 80% of the personell was Italian...from this fiat gm V6 global family is derived the alfa V6 JTS but in difference with all other engines of this family has only the engine block in common...all other parts appart the fiat-gm block are 100% exclusive to alfa romeo and even the dual VVT system the TwinPhaser is an invention of alfa romeo s.p.a. in 1982...as JTS now copied by lexus....think that even the GM versions like Saab V6 Turbo or the 3.6V6 High Feature used by Cadillac and recently by other brands like Holden have fiat dna on them.The choice to produce in the all new factory in australia was made bt fiat and gm europe cause was all new...if the matter was the cost they would prefer the canadian plant where the V6 global family is also produced for cadillac models...
V6 Global is a family of V6's developed in JV between Fiat and GM in the period through 2001 and 2004, the alfa v6 jts engine are the most distant relatives of the basic fiat-gm V6 global as use only the same block with the other...but even in the 2.8V6 Turbo developed by Saab named ecotec V6 turbo on vectra restyling or even the high feature 3.6 used by Cadillac and at last by Holden have many fiat cromosomes...it is an engine family developed between both parts of atlantic...the choice of australia for alfa and gm europe engines were cause the factory is totally new...is a choice made for quality if itv was for logistics they would prefer north america..holden has nothing to do with the development...this family comes in three displacements 2.8 3.2 and 3.6 we will surely see a 2.8 alfa but is not yet decided if they will offer the 3.6 too...
All new L4 JTS and V6 JTS families heads are ready to adopt multiair electronic valve control system...
Appart what i say there,is impossible achieve a specific power of 12,5% higher, 300rpm lower(!), without very heavy modifications, that include specific heads and use of state of the art technology like the exclusive stoichiometric gasoline direct injection JTS(Jet Thrust Stoichiometric) and Twinphaser(DualVVT).
aspirated V6 global engines
Alfa 3.2V6 JTS 3195cm3 260cv/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(290nm/1800rpm*)
Cadillac(GM) 3.6V6 "HighFeature" 3564cm3 258cv/6500rpm 339nm/2800rpm
specific power and torque...
Alfa V6 JTS 81,4cv/6200rpm 100,8nm/4500rpm(90,8nm/1800rpm*)
GM 3.6 HFV6 72,4cv/6500rpm 95,1nm/2800rpm
*more than 90% of the max torque from 1800 to 6250rpm.
The new 3.2JTS a sounds excellent the same as the busso 3.2V6(that is euro IV as well), and i own/ed both, and earlier bussos too, to find a busso that sounds better than the current V6 JTS you have to go to the previous euro III and euro II 3.0V6s, the sound difference with older engines is a matter of the emission normatives.
At last i remind you that the busso V6 in 1979 when started it's carrier, was not that monster of power compared to the other 6cylinders in the market, very later we saw this engine real potential with the various Dohc and 4v/cyl upgrades, the new V6 JTS is already in a very good level, and with the predicted power upgrades for my2008 and my2010 with the multiair electronic valve control will surely be where alfa fans expect it, single at the top of it's segment.
The block is important for the engine architecture & weight, but the rest makes the engines soul not the block.Regarding the new Alfa V6 JTS that shares it's block with the various new GM V6 engines i have to say that the choice of having a 60 degrees V and be all alloy make it a proper block for Alfa
For those who complain about new engines and weight
So many years i did not hear any complaint that AR used Fiat's blocks in their ts engines made from cast iron...at least the new blocks have better thermodynamic/torque made totally from aluminium and weight less.Anyway Fiat-Gm powertrain belongs to the past.AR will introduce step 2 of its Diesel/petrol engines and new turbo engines (1.8/2.2JTB.Also until the end of the decade AR will introduce (except new diesel's) new generation of 4 and 6 cylinder engines.For example the new V6 will share common components with the new alfa-ferrari-maserati v8 that it will replace the current v8 with dry sump.The new v6 will easily have a power ratio at 90-100hp/lt under 7000rpm.
New engines were initilally destinated for 2007.....but Brera/159 had to be in the market in 2006 and as result engines were not 100% ready......thats why evolution versions will be introduced in 2007-2008 plus new turbo engines.
Bmw's L6 uses valvetronic while V6 JTS has direct injection JTS,higher spesific power/rpm-torque and homologated with 95Ron.V6 JTS despite the V architecture (which means more weight) and 0,2lt+ compared to the straight L6 weights only 1kg more!In terms of sound nothing can be compared to AR's v6....everything else sounds like an else sounds like a toaster.New V6 has more metallic/brutal sound than 3.2V6 euro4 of Gt coupe with less bass (don't blame AR...blame euro4) which is sth that i have to admit.It has better response in low rpm cause of better torque sth that Busso's V6 was missing and also it has the same brio in high rpm's.According to auto mag it accelarates (0-100) Brera in 6.5sec and in top gear in 6.6sec.This is sth amazing if we consider that 156GTA that weights 220kg less reaches 100km/h (according to auto) in 6.3sec.Also don't forget that Brera's gearbox has long gear ratios....it's second gear dont overcome 120km/h....if it had same gear ratios with 147/156 GTA/GT 3.2 it would easily reach 100km/h in sth slighlty more than 6sec......and weights 220kg more than 156 and 270kg than 147.In terms of performarnce V6JTS is better than busso's v6.For those who compalin about Gm origin,only the block is Fiat-Gm Powertrain.Holden doesn't develope engines,it just constructe's/cast the blocks according to Fiat-Gm's specifications.In the past i did not hear any beefs in British magazines about 6,75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es....and the funny thing is that some bentley owners are complaining about the use of the W12 VW/Audi retrofit....neither of those engines were 100% Bentley.
Alfa 1.9JTS(1859cm3) 160hp
Audi 2.0 130hp
BMW 18i 2.0 129hp
Alfa 2.2JTS 185hp
BMW 20i 2.0 150hp
Audi/VW 2.0FSi
Audi 1.8Turbo 163hp
MB 1.8 Kompressor 163hp
VW 1.4TSI 170hp
AR vs Bmw
1858cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 160hp/6500rpm 190nm/4500rpm(168nm/2000rpm)
'18i' 1998cm3 L4 16v Valvetronic 129hp/5750rpm 180nm/3250rpm
.................................................. .............................................
2198cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 185hp/6500rpm 230nm/4500rpm(203nm/2000rpm)
'20i' 1998cm3 L4 16v valvetronic 150hp/6200rpm 200nm/3600rpm
.................................................. .............................................
3195cm3 V6 24v JTS TwinPhaser 260hp/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(285nm/2000rpm)
'30i' 2995cm3 L6 24v valvetronic 258hp/6600rpm 300nm/2500rpm
It is true that new generation of AR's need better performances (i dont care for cold performances in boring straights but the excellent new platform can easily handle more horsepower)...yes they are heavy but to be HONEST they are not very heavy for what they offer...
A 4wd 350z would weight more than a Brera 3,2JTS...a similar in length 4wd with glazed roof and similar equipment 350Z would weight 100kgr more than a Brera 3.2JTS Q4...
A similar in lenghth 3 series with similar equipment would have a weight similar to 159...there not too heavy for what they offer in proportion to the competitors..
After engine weight is not important for total weight but is very important for the front axe weight that can increase a cars understeering as happens in the new TT TFSI(even if the total weight is low..that doesn't matters is engine weight that matters) for example or the Golf GT with the TSI engine......
As i said before it is true that Brera 3.2 is a heavy car but we must consider Q4(150KG+)/skyview/bigger dimensions and better equiped than Gtv...but 2.2JTS version that does not have Q4 shows that Brera is not a heavy car at all.According to manual GTV 2.0 40kg heavier than Brera 2.2
GTV 2.0ΤS/JTS commercial brochure 1370kgr DIN manual 1490kgr DIN(1565kgr ECE)
Βrera 2.2JTS commercial brochure 1470kgr DIN manual 1450kgr DIN(1525kgr ECE)
ECE=DIN + 75KG (weight of driver+liquids)
-Multiair 2009
-1.8JTB 200hp (H1/2008)
-1.4TB 120hp & 150hp (>200Nm/1500rpm)beginning of 2007
-2.2JTB beginning of 2008
-2.4JTD second step 220hp/425Nm....2.5JTDm 240hp 2008
-1.6JTD 120/130hp soon available
-1.9JTDm 175hp (H2/2006).........2.0JTDm 190hp 2008
-1.9JTDm TwinStage 200hp 2007........................2.0JTDm TwinStage 220hp
-3.0JTDm 250hp(step 1)/270hp(step 2)/290hp(step 3)
2007-08
-1.9JTS evolution 170hp
-2.2JTS evolution 200hp
-3.2JTS evolution 290hp
WAKE UP and read the below list...and that the block is just the soulless part of the engine....despite most of the R&D is made in italy!!....where the block is casted is sth that does not bother me!
1)Bmw provides Mini with Chrysler engines while has contract on future 4.0lt (1.8-2.2lt) with the PSA(not only the souless block but all the engine R&D will be Psa.....also Mini's diesel is derivered from Toyota.
2)Cayenne uses 3.2V6 the VW with no modification...Porsches high profit with low cost.
3)Ford --> Jaguar/Aston Martin while collaborates with the PSA in Diesel.Jaguar S type uses the engine of Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird.Aston Martin Vantage which costs 120000euro uses the V8 of Lincoln and the 155,000 DB9/250.000 Vanquish use a v6+v6=v12....v6=duratec ford....so sad for those historical companies...whould you like if Ferrari enzo had a v12=v6+v6(from fiat)?
4)Audi Seat and Skoda, same engines with the VW.
5)Diesel of Daimlerchrysler from Vm motori s.p.a
6),75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es.
Despite Bmw announced that each other 6cylinder engine with the same hp with it’s own 6cylinder weights 10kg more,AR’s new alouminium V6 weights only +1kg (162kg)
V6 Busso VS V6 JTS
-20kg
+20hp/33nm
JTS
TwinPhaser--> offers 85% of torque between 1500 & 6000rpm & 90% between 2500 & 6000rpm
Platform
The 156 successor before the GM Fiat agreement would use the Fiat Stilo floorpan(called Type C/D) in a version with longer wheelbase and alfa specific suspension architecture, what Alfa gain with this history is the premium floorpan, that is the first exclusive Alfa floorpan since 116.When the alliance started they wanted to use the GM Epsilon floorpan with alfa specific suspensions for the 156 successor and GTV/Spider successors.
In late 2000 started a project between Alfa(fiat auto),Saab(Gm europe) & Cadillac(GM) for an E/F segment high tech modular floorpan(for 166,9-5 and CTS/STS successors) based on a Fiat reserach center patent that would allow flexible wheelbase length,transverse or longitudinal mounted engines and gearboxes, fwd or rwd with just changing one or a couple of modules, Cadillac was the first house to left the project some months after to concentrate on the cheaper rwd Sigma floorpan, in early 2002 a Saab deep in crisis decide to abandon the expensive premium floorpan and expand it's synergies with Opel/Vauxhall in order to cut cost.
Alfa made a brave decision to keep and develop the premium floorpan, but wouldn't come to break even point with 166 successor, so they decided to use a version of the high tech premium floorpan for the 156 successor in order to have the needed volume.In march 2002 in Geneva, Brera concept was presented by Italdesign-Giugiaro, and public loved it, a couple of months after Alfa made a proposal to italdesign to design all the new midsize family based on brera concept style, december 2002 Alfa & Italdesign announced their collaboration.
And as a result of 159's excellent platform...
159 was 1st in all the FIVE dynamique tests of German AMS MASTERTEST...
Stability test in the corner 159 1st.....3 11th....a4 6th...C 7th
Wet Lane Change....159 1st....3 3rd........a4 9th.......C....10th
Lane Change........159 1.....3 3......A4 9........C 2....
Slalom.........159 1........3 3........A4 9.......C 7......
Test reindeer ...159 1..........3 2........A4 11........C 3...
What car is the best in handling in D segment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgTsO6fk ... alfa%20rom eo%20159
Also it won the French mastertest
(BMW 320d,Audi A4 2.0TDI,Jaguar X type D,Peugeot 407 και Renault Laguna)
http://www.mitoalfaromeo.com/Public/dat ... 0051016123 034_Mail0002.JPG
Brera
Clarkson says, "New definition of insanity....someone who looks at a Brera and then buys something else...".....I've never driven a car that less needed its ESP system.
Brera represents the real spirit of AR which is simiral to cars like 1900SS & Giulietta Sprint.
Brera is for someone with automotive education(not for you),wider culture but also is lover of high aesthetics and follows the last tendencies of fashion(of course not for you).But it’s also a trendsetter and fashionvictims will buy it like they did with Χ5/Cayenne or Mini…sorry for being cynical but there is a category of people that don’t care about money/logic and just buy a car in order to be in and follow fashion tendencies…..those people passed from boxster to TT and nowadays they are driving ΜΙΝΙ or SUV(X5,X3,M,Cayenne etc.)
You can't loose or ''buy'' history...for example VW bought bugatti/bentley.Porsche is a makes that is absent from the heroic automotive period & it was given birth from the rib of VW,a mass production constructor.From 356 until 911 uses a technical solution with rwd/rear engine which is the most economic and applicated in city cars like Fiat 500,VW Kaefer,Fiat 127,Fiat 600....not sth appropriate for supercars...also the adoption of boxer engines from 356 has its roots in VW beetle.Why Porsche and in general all hypothetic german premium constructors did not get involved with 4cylinder?.....audi get involved with 2-cycle engine 800cc/1000cc....bmw with 400cc....i am not talking about motorcycles!!The movement in front axis has noble origin,much nobler than that of engine behind/rwd or even classic rwd.Nowadays classic rwd is technically acceptable only for light roadsters with attractive price.Afterwards a serious RWD constructor selects the solution of the gearbox in the rear axis if the engine is in front,or the engine in the centre sth that gives better weight distribution.Fwd was given birth from some of the most prestigious constructors of all time like Duesenberg or Bucciali...There are not so many companies to have produced 16/12 cylinder like AR did in its 96 years of history...recently Porsche reached 10cylinder.
159
Alfa 159:This is one of those cars that’s demonstrably and appreciably better than any other mid-range four-door family saloon. And unlike any Alfa of the past, you don’t have to machete your way through a million inconveniences to find the point. This car does not hide its gold watch up its behind. It is an absolute gem. Jeremy Clarkson for Sunday Times
Alfa romeo is not only cars like 75 or Giulietta....but also cars like 1900 or 2000/2600 berlina refined and with Gt character...Alfa is neither lotus neither lamborghini..alfa is not pure sportiness is like her daughterbrand ferrari is sport combined with elegance and sofistication that's what alfa is about from 1910 to 2005...
159 is a real alfa...probably more real alfa than the rwd 75...and that cause alfa have to be for tradition a class benchmark and 75 was surely nice to drive car but in an very old basis(from '72 Alfetta) and poor in all other aspects even the design wasn't at the height's of alfa's tradition...for me 159 is the first real alfa in d segment for years the first complete d segment alfa since Alfetta(alfa 147 is a real alfa a superbe interpretation of alfasud theme)......all alfa's till 2000/2600 berlina had for exaple state of the art quality..and even more recent giulia was sensibly heavier than a BMW 02...just like 159 over 3 e90...many of alfa classics were very heavy cars even compared to the rivals like for example the late 40's version of 6c2500 or even the first mass alfa the 1900...i think that many loose the point what is really alfa...alfa is not only pure sportiness is a way of sofisticated and elegant sportiness and with the recent models alfa return to it's tradition....
Alfa 159 is a sport sedan not a sportcar neither Giulia 4door or 1900 were sportcars what you want an even sportier car...cause 159 is the sportiest sedan in offer in todays market with less weight(even i don;t think that in normal versions weight was a vaint for classic alfa's...usually weigh more than other cars of it's times)...towards uncompromised...alla cars are compromised except supercars and highend luxury lmousines....and surely 159 is the most uncompromised car in it's segment even if it's compromised as all not handmade cars...
No alfa has never been such an evolutionary brand as you present was more a revolutionary brand...see the succession from handmade cars to industrial from 6c2500 to 1900.....the revolution in design that created contrasts in the alfisti from Giulietta to Giulia....the contrast between alfisti between giulia and alfetta both for technic and design...so it's not something new as you want to present...alfa 159 is a new reinterpretation of alfa spirit much more alfa than 75 or 156 that were really products carismatic surely but born in compromise.. alfa 159 has cues from many models of the past and ofcourse has much of the year 2000..as 1900 was an alfa of 1950 or Giulietta of 1955 or Giulia of 1962 or Alfetta of 1972...the 159 is a real alfa of 2005.. and it is the first real alfa since Alfetta...ofcourse as all cars has advantages and disadvantages nothing is perfect...but at the moment is the best car in it's segment an excellent car the new executive compact benchmark and that's something we had to see in alfa since alfetta.
156 was a carismatic car but missed the grandeur od 159...159 has both the grandeur and the carisma...and is miraculous the way can combine the best handling in segment with the best comfort between the executive compact cars...why have only something when you can have everything....
159 is a charismatic car...and after Fiat Auto had spent an amount in R&D for 159 bigger than that of BMW in 3 e90...you have to consider in overall cost even the cost of the industrialization...alfa has line in pomigliano for 180.000 cars max..BMW for 400.000 3 series 4door and Touring only in Germany..if you consider this you find that in overall cost alfa spend more for R&D of 159 than BMW in 3 e90...so that BMW spended more for R&D in 3 series over 159 is a myth...now the alfa 159 line produce at the 67% of their max capacity with the add of sportwagon and rhd versions and the launch in all markets we hope to arrive at 100%...but the alfa prediction is for max production in 2007 that will be the first complete year.Just some other figures alfa 156 sold slightly over 130.000 cars in 2000 that is the 156 record and sold over 100.000 any year between 1998 and 2001...
Many spoke about prices the price gap between 159 and 156 is smaller than that between 155 and 156...the brand image is better than 1997....the distribution is not the best is still 3 times small in sell points than audi or bmw...but is better than we had in 1997...the sportwagon arrives some months from the launch and not after 3 years...the line up is more complete...the product has higher credibility and has all the cards to make better than 156..
As for granduer expect the obvious carisma of both 156 and 159...alfa 159 is a more important car true grandeur...
159 offers the most complete technology pack in it's segment...double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension the higher torsional rigidity in it's segment, the first car in the world with multisplit floorpan, the faster steering wheel in it; segment, the first car with a line up exclusively with dierct injection engines,the first car in the world with passenger mounted knees airbag,the first car in it's segment with double glazed windows, the most sofisticated 4wd with three differential and central torsen-c in it's segment, high cut gearboxes...the best brakes in the segment...high quality interior with high quality material and the only car except luxury makers to offer pieno fiore leather quality trim.....a car that won the former leader the former benchmark in every single handling or energy safety test...a car that has the record of lane change in it;s segment with over 130km/h....cutting edge alfa technology......
Alfa Romeo 159 offer better handling than anything in it's segment but offers also more comfort than a bmw,audi,jag or mb..sounds strange but is a reality...159 with a suspension with major excursion and also a bit softer than a 3 series roll less(1,2 degrees with standard suspension)...and handles better in all situations ...when you can offer more..handling+comfort...why offer less?...
The multisplit technology premium floorpan is the more advanced steel floorpan that exists in the market...50kgr more in a car about the 159 size is nothing to the advantages it offers...and is surely not the result of a compromise is the most high cost floorpan used by a D segment car would cost less use a traditional floorpan...
Regarding the fuel quality..all modern engines are very sensible to fuel quality...just try to dyno a Audi A3 2.0FSI with 95ron and with 98ron fuel...you will not found more than 159hp in alfa and more than 145hp in Audi with 95ron fuel...all the last hi tech engines like the JTS or the FSI direct injection or the valvetronic elctronic valve control have very high compression ratio(about 11:1) and are realy sensible to fuel quality...so you have differences of up to 3% in power and torque and of 3% in consumption...alfa romeo JTS engines and Lexus new V6(like IS250 one that copys JTS alfa stoichiometric direct injection) engines are the only houses with direct injection engines that declare the data and the performance using the 95ron fuel...bmw or audi in order to declare better figures declare them using 98ron and only at the end of their last page they say with small letters that performance and consumption would be worst..that's not fair cause the performance differ sensibly on fuel quality.
For end alfa 159 is the right car(drive it and compare it to 3 series or IS(that is as heavy as 159 sic)) is the best executive compact actually in market maintain tha important aspects of an alfa and adds new like quality passive safety confort thata are very important to approach more customers from brands like bmw,audi or mb.
159 is a midsize car not alfa high end car...the real high end alfa we will see till 2008 and will be a over 4,9m foordoor coupe' with many synergies with maserati updated lwb premium floorpan a direct rival to cars like CLS and Porsche Panamera.
All cars are bigger and heavier in this segment...is not something that effects alfa 159 but all mass produced cars...
Is FWD but handles better than the best RWD car in the segment and offers standard to the high end version the most sofisticated 4wd in the segment...so i really don't understand you...
Most people consider the 159 a masterpiece of design ofcourse there will be person who don;t like it's design...as there are persons that don't like picasso but that doesn't mean that picasso is not the most important of the 20th century...same consideration for 159...that there are few people that don;t like 159 doesn't mean that 159 is not a masterpiece...
Lighter and more compact D segment in todays market with a descent design and mass production is impossible...
Ofcourse you can offer a car with less equipment as BMW or Audi make in Germany and without double glazed windows and have 60-100kgr less from 159 but that's not the point cause most people would prefer a better equiped car than the naked german trim levels of 3 series or A4...and after all double glazed windows is one of the features that put this car appart from the competition...is a sofistication and a premiere for the segment...and alfa i remind you at least in foor door sedans is not what you want to say...what you want your view of alfa is not alfa but more something like lotus that doesn't make 4door cars...in the 80's or cars were more extreme sporty and vulgar...but that's not the alfa's heritage neither the real alfa....
As i said alfa 159 is by far a more real alfa than any other berlina we had seen in the two last decades....
159 handles far better from 3 series...forget their points at the end of mastertest and give a look in what they measure...alfa 159 with a worst power to weight ratio wins all and five the handling and energy safety tests....3 series was the last of 11 cars in skidpad...so i really doesn't understand, you ofcourse the german press wil search to defend their industry...as for the roll...alfa 159 with standard suspension rolls exactly 1,2 degrees less than 3 series and that is a fact and not an impression...is measured!
The handling benchmark is the 159 has better handling better and faster steer with same turning circle.....the miraculous is that combines confort to handling...is really impressive how a car with worst power to weight ratio handles better..but has to do with the suspension scheme and the chassis...
The 159 and Brera was tested by the same person that make the development of the 612 or the quattroporte or the F139 or the Enzo or the Mc12...not from ordinary people...and all are impressed from the way brera handles..brera q4 handles better than a 911 carrera 4...i know that for some is a heavy thing to say...but 911 is not that technical benchmark has only optimized set up the rest is open to argument...after strangely as size 911 is the most similar car to Brera...441cm the Brera 443cm the 911...183cm the Brera 181cm the 911...and both with really short wheelbase...252,5cm the Brera and 235cm the 911....
Dimensions...
156 was a compromised product as dimensions...cause alfa wanted a 265cm wheelbase dualframe floorpan but at last they had to use an evolution of tipo 2 that couldn't be extended more than 260cm....so they had to make the compromise to make a car a little smaller from what they were wanting...they wanted a 4,5/4,52m car with 2,65m wheelbase and make a 4,43-4,44m with 2,595m wheelbase....so this was a result of a compromise....same compromise for 166 when alfa wanted a 2,8m wheelbase and Cantarella in order to spend less money doesn't let them use an evolution of the Kappa floorpan but constrict them to use the same floorpan with Kappa...so those 156 or 166 were technically compromised cars...surely if were developed as wanted the alfa management would have even more success...
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthr ... 08&page=24
President of Mercedes Benz told in Frankfurt 2003.If AR was able to produce 8c competizione with no limitation in production it will break down Porsche in a few months!!
Speaking with objectivity Cayenne is a Touareg with restyled front/rear end and different interior…everything else is the same as all the mechanical parts except 2 engines….car body of Cayenne is build in Slovak in the same factory with Touareg and then it is send in Germany for the final assembly…... Cayenne is a travestite Touareg.Porsche whether you like it or not is a company that started from low and nowadays maintains in 911 the architecture of city car and pretends of selling supercars.High profit with low cost…..even it’s last model cayman uses a 10years old frame….Negatives in AR’s history are less than those of hypothetic premium brands like audi,bmw,porsche.
Alfa Romeo Vs Porsche/VW/Bmw...etc german ''lack of passion'' brands.
Beetle was the father of 356 the first porsches car in the end of 40es(in that period AR was constructing luxury and expensive cars like 6c2500).1300 version of the first 356 used the same block with VW such us 1050 & 1600 versions of 356.912 and after 911 were more hard to drive even than pure supercars of ferrari in the same period.And before the period of electronics/4wd came owners of porsche locked them in the garage when it was raining(911 RennSport of 73).Don't speak about the turbo-lag of the first 991-turbo.In 1950 AR produced its first mass production car the 1900 in sprint & super sprint versions and it costed also a lot than porsche 356.In the mid of 50es AR introduces Giulietta 1300 Sprint & Spider the first AR’s with low price/engine cubism in order to compete with 356.In the same period Porsche introduces 1600cc of 356 but it couldn’t even match the performances of a giulietta sprint 1300cc.1900 sprint/spider are replaced from more expensive 2000/2600 sprint/spider and Giulietta acquired a 1600cc engine and changes its name to Giulia GT Sprint.Porsche introduces 356 2000 & in the end of 60es introduces 912/911 with 2.0lt engine and then follows 2,4lt to replace 356…in the same period the production of 2000/2600sprint/spider ends and AR introduces 33 stradale & Montreal and because of the energy crisis the sales of supercars drops…33 dominates in the races.Porsche introduces 911 turbo and Ferrari the first V12 entrylevel the 308 and it’s the first time that a Porsche who was constructing small cars can be compared with a Ferrari despite it is entry level.If we want to see a real supercar from Porsche we must wait until the end of 80es with 959.So it is ridiculous for some alfisti to reduce the history of AR by compairing it with Porsche which is a company originated from the rib of a VW Beetle.
Ceramic brakes is not Porsche's innovation as some mags report but made in italy by Brembo.250 GTO '62 was until 1987 the most expensive car in public sale.Then the first place passed to Bugatti Type 41 Royale of 1931 with 5.500.000£,and from 2001 the first place belongs to one of the 2 remaining 8c2900b LM Touring Superleggera of 1938 for 11.000.000$....even one of the 3 remaining F50 GT1 costs under 9.000.000$.Porsche will never gain the HERITAGE of Alfa/Bugatti/Ferrari/Bentley and lets say Mercedes.Ferrari is the only company that was born after the war and gives you the emotion of the heroic automotive period(it excisted before war as AR's racing team and all nowadays Ferrari's G.turismo continues AR's concept before 1951.Heritage is sth very important for cars that overcome the price of 1.000.000$.For example Mc Laren F1 is an amazing car but in six years of production it sold only 80mcf1 out of 100 that were constructed...you see for collectors Mclaren's name means nothing!For 3 decates AR(historical rival of Bugatti & Bentley) was constructing cars in the price of nowadays Ferrari/ bugatti.Ferrari the son of AR become famous cause scuderia Ferrari was the official grandprix racing team of AR between 1929 & 1934,12/13 years before Ferrari produced it’s first road car.
911 was born as an adaption of an entry level car VW beetle....uses a layout used in a low-price car in the 30-50's....cause was the less costly lay out to produce is rear engined/rwd(37/63 and can reach 39/61 in turbo versions)....in those times was very costly have fwd/frontengine(and even now rwd rear engine remain the less costly even if rarely used)...even today use a front suspension scheme 'mcpherson strut' that is odd for a proper sportcar(should have double wishbone...and porsche supercars like carrera GT use double wishbone) and the rear multilink is worse than those of Golf but with the help of electronics there is no problem..even the 4wd used in 911 carrera4 with viscous coupling similar to that used by panda..to make an example is not an example of sofistication,dont mention the slow steering wheel with 3 turns....911 is a car with exceptional set up...they work decades on it's set up but technically is just over mediocrity and many solutions that porsche explains as tradition in reality have to do with low production cost and high profit....
Porsche appart that has in all models a less stiff body than brera(Brera has a 20% stiffer body than 159...in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50 in torsional rigidity level)........uses in carrera 4 a viscous coupling 4wd far less sofisticated than the three differential with torsen-c central 4wd used by Brera...except of all that porsche cayman/boxster and 911 use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle...so even the suspension scheme of Brera double wishbone front-multilink rear is more sofisticated than that of porsche with mcpherson strut front and multilink rear..in that we have to add the far quicker steering wheel of Brera derives from that of the actual 147/156 GTA that was the faster in the world in pair with some TVR models with 1,75turns....911 and porsche in general have very slow steering wheels with 2,9-3,2 turns..
The product was so good that guide the maserati management to make the choice to develop a 911 carrera level priced(80.000 euro) maserati entry level model based on Brera model(for now the project is frozen due to economic reasons)...Boxster and Cayman is not state of the art neither as handling...Aston Martin has a far longer wheelbase and a more GT set up than 911 carrera S...so in track surely a car like 911 would be advantaged specially if the car is not state of the art on it;s set up...V8 Vantage would make better if follow the quattroporte and 612 example with more weight in rear axle...that could help in a car with long wheelbase...and would give better performance...Cayman is stiff but is based on 986/987 a project launched in market in 1996...first of all so the body is stiff but is half as stiff as Brera for example...
after Cayman handles better than a carrera but not as good as a carrera 4...you would b eimpressed by the performance of a good 4wd...and brera has a state of the art 4wd...much more sofisticated than the viscous coupling one of 996/997..
After as the 911 has a mcpherson strut as front suspension not the best choice for a sportcar...
Porsches philosophy is high profit with low cost cause........
1995/2006 Porsche
-Boxster 986/Boxster 987/Cayman
-996/997
-Cayenne
Carrera GT
3 models build in the base of a restyled VW 2 type 807/Ulysse...and Boxster/911 have beyond 40% of the parts in common....
1995/2006 Ferrari
-360/F430
-575/550/superamerica
-612
-F50
-Enzo Ferrari/F
-F599
2 completely new models and 3 new to replace the series.
1995/2006 Aston Martin
-DB9
-Vanquish
-V8 Vantage
Despite have small numbers it introduces new models and not facelifts.
Jaguar 1995/2005
-X Type
-XK 1996
-XK
-XJ 1995
-XJ
-S Type
6 models of completely new series… against the 3 of Porsche which were specially built in the same period.
Porsche facelifts.
Boxster 986...1996.Restyled in 2004 with 987.
911 986........1997..............//.......... 2004
Cayman & boxster are the restyled/coupe versions of 997(1996).
Cayenne is a masked VW Touareg with only the V8(turbo) made from Porsche.
986/87 (boxter) has great parts of the platform & 60% parts in common with 996/997(911) of 1997…. they are not new models but heavy restyling of the previous models that go back in 90es.In order to see a totally new model we have to wait until 2009 with panamera(4 door coupe)
AR race wins
(Without GTV6, 75, Alfetta in ETCC; 75, 155 in BTCC, 1750 in 24h Nurburgring)…..and you avoid to speak about AR wins in prewar period…..you should know that those wins in historic events made AR the most important company for collectors not Touring races from 1965!...but ok lets speak about most recent touring races cause when AR was winning Maserati/Bugatti in prewar races Bmw was constructing engines for aeroplanes.
1965
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 49
BMW 44
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 2
1966
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 51
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 31,5
1967
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo
BMW not include
1969
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 78
BMW 36
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 76,5
1970
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 63
Alfa Romeo 46
Division 3, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 60
BMW 30
1971
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 54
BMW 28
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 35
1972
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 91
BMW 85
1973
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 94
BMW 62
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120
1974
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 61
Alfa Romeo 34
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 90
1975
Division 1, Manufacturers
BMW 47
Alfa Romeo don’t race
Division 2, Manufacturers
BMW 120
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1976
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 115
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 135
BMW 85
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 30
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140
1977
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 32
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 150
Alfa Romeo 137
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 133
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 160
1978
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 170
Division 1, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 152
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 140
1979
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 180
Division 4, Manufacturers
BMW 172
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1980
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo 68
1981
Division 5, Manufacturers
BMW 140
Alfa Romeo don’t race
1982
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 160
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 155
1983
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 165
1984
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 152
1985
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 200 (257)
BMW 139
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 114 (140)
1986
Division 2, Manufacturers
Alfa Romeo 73
BMW 180
Division 3, Manufacturers
BMW 160
AR wins with smaller engines…In the battle ALFA GTV 2.5 vs BMW 635 AR is winner and in the battle ALFA GTA (GTAm) vs BMW 2002 AR is again winner.Bmw/Porsche when compared to AR’s history is a total ZERO with ZERO interest fOR collectors….except James Deen Porsche 550 (i am just joking)…but speaking about history Audi’s is even below ZERO and more embarrassing for automotive history!
Brera/spider,z4,slk,boxster/cayman,TT belong in the same category independently to their architecture.Porsche has a traditional rivalry with AR that started with 356/ giulietta sprint & spider in 50es.In that period Porsche did not have equally powerful cars to Alfa Romeo 1900 & 2000/2600 Sprint & Spider.A rivalry that exists today between porsche club & alfa club of usa....Boxster uses McPherson in front,slow steering wheel and 10years old frame(1996).Brera is 4,4 times more rigid than Boxster and 2t more than Cayman.TT is an unacceptable car...it uses the same mechanical parts with Golf IV/Leon/Toledo/Octavia/A3-->McPherson/knee action/fake 4wd with haldex and multilink that was recalled (twice and it was fitted with esp) in 1999 cause it broke down and caused death accidents....also cause of bad aerodynamic it tumbled in high speeds...what a perfect car only when compared to a city car like ATOS!According to testers ferrari/maserati-Dario Benuzzi 159/Βrera Q4 have simiral handling to quattroporte/gransport.Some people say that Brera is heavy....i want to inform them that Brera 3.2 fitted with V8 of maserati gransport weights less than a maserati coupe/gransport (despite having Q4).Speaking of German cars 7 & S class are the most unreliable cars in the world with the most electronic problems which their owners know well....i remember characteristically when a series 7 was immobilised and the mechanics(?) found the problem after 2 weeks of searching.
5 series after a car crash costs a fortune...cause the stupid choice of Bmw to use chassis from 2 materials & combined with the complicated aircraft way of assembling it was demolished in euroncap crashtest...3 stars only in the first tests is very poor rating...that cause a headache to insurance companies in Usa and most of them do not assure 5/6 series...it is better to throw 5/6 in rubbish after a car crash rather than pay for repairing.
Some people don't like to hear it but Porsche's technical solutions are antiquated and it is the company with the worse value for money...after bugatti/bentley/lamborghini,even scoda is the company in grouppo Vag with great history....more important than Audi's/vw/seat....i want say anything...i will remind you that the fist mass production car with translaxe was a scoda.
Brera has a 15% stiffer body than 159...207.000 daNM/rad(2.070.000 NM/rad) or 36.100 ΝΜ/deg......in the same level with carbon fiber ferrari f50/maserati quattroporte......sth amazing for this segment.Cayman has half the t.r. sth that is natural cause it is not a total new product but it is based in the 10years old chassis of Boxster with all the compromises.Except of all that porsche cayman use a simple mcpherson strut in the front axle sth that affects the turn in accurancy and combined with the traditional slow steering wheel of Porsche doen't help sport driving behaviour.I remind that even the conventional versions of brera & spider 3.2JTS Q4 decelarate 100-0 in 35,5m which is 1.2m better than the sport version of Boxster S(36,7m)....& 1,9m from Spider's 3.2JTS Q4 rival,Boxster(37,4m).Also Brera uses double wishbone front-multilink rear..in that we have to add the quickest steering wheel in its seg. and the most sophisticated 4wd Q4 II (according to professors of automotive press like Serge Bellu or Μichele Fenu) first with Torsen-C II in the market.The central differential can create 20% blocking effect in the front differential sth that eliminates the traditional oversteer of 4wd cars in thick turns.Some ignorant journalists try to compare Brera 3.2 Q4 with Evo/Wrx sti in order to drug in the mad but their technical specifications of these cars do not impress me.It is very easy with a stiff suspension and expensive 4wd even in a car with mediocore suspension/chassis to achieve competitive performances....the hard thing is to combine ultimate handling/driving behaviour with roll quality/comfort....like Alfa Romeo does...sth that requires great frame in all sectors and not only in setup.Don't even mention the mediocore chassis of TT same with Octavia/Leon/Toledo/Golf IV/A3 and the fake 4wd with haldex
Brera is the name of a high class neighborhood in the centre of Milan,but is more famous as the name of world fame academy of good arts and because
Alfa romeo wanted to take advantage of the logical consequence it's name creates,decided to make presentations of Alfa Romeo Brera with invitations in an art gallery.Moreover alfa romeo's are cars that suits best the definition
''sculptural work of art in 4 wheels''.....first from these events took place before one week and others will follow in all the important markets.
Alfa will return in USA with the facelift2008 Brera & Spider as MY2009 US models, but that means that the company launch is for 2008 otherways we would talk about my2010 models.The pricing will be at the same level with the BMWs, take a look at Z4 Coupe 3.0si and Z4 Roadster 3.0si prices, just to take a glimpse of Brera/Spider 3.2JTS pricing.3.2 v6 evolution will boost 290hp.
New engines
First to put an end in speculations, Holden does not design engines, the new 3.6V6 used by the Holden Commodore and called "alloytec" by Holden, is the all new high tech 3.6V6 called HFV6 "High Feature V6" in the US by Cadillac, and Cadillac not Holden was the first GM brand to use it(in CTS,SRX & STS), this engine is part of a new family of modular engines called Global V6, product of the former JV between Fiat & GM called Fiat-GM Powertrain, ofcourse except the european Turin based Fiat-GM Powertrain, North American GM Powertrain participate to the r&d of this new modular engine family, product of this JV is the Cadillac 255bhp(258ps) 3.6 HFV6(called alloytec by holden in Australia) Alfa's 260ps 3.2V6 JTS and Saab's 2.8V6 Turbo 230ps/255ps.The common block of these engines was designed in order to satisfy all the different applications, and it's 60° V architecture is a classic for Alfa, the busso is a 60° all alloy V6 too, the Alfa V6 JTS ofcourse uses different heads with stoichiometric direct injection(is a bit different and sportier than classic GDI(which will see in some other GM's V6 global application),Alfa is the first house that use that type of GDI and till now only Lexus use it too in it's new V6 family) and Twinphaser dual VVT, and other modification and accessories that make it differ substantially from the GM cousins..the heads of the new V6 JTS are designed in order to accomodate in the future the awarded Multiair electronic valve control for the MY2010, before the Multiair revolution which is scheduled for late 2009, we will have a new step for the JTS engines in late 2007 for the MY2008, the 3.2V6 JTS will get an upgrade to 290ps (286bhp), and this upgraded version of the 3.2JTS will be the version you will see in the other shore of the atlantic.
The choice to manufacture Alfa's V6 JTS in the new Port Melbourne plant and not in the St.Catharines Ontario plant that manufacture as well the V6 global, was a choice of quality, the new plant in australia could assure a better respect of alfa romeo's specifications, the engine is shipped partly assembled to Italy, the final assembly of the V6 JTS engines is made in Alfa Romeo's Pomigliano d'Arco plant.
First of all Holden doesn't even have a powertrain department(use GM engines)...the new V6 Global family is a JV project between Fiat and GM a Fiat-GM Powertrain project...and in the fiat gm powertrain r&d department the 80% of the personell was Italian...from this fiat gm V6 global family is derived the alfa V6 JTS but in difference with all other engines of this family has only the engine block in common...all other parts appart the fiat-gm block are 100% exclusive to alfa romeo and even the dual VVT system the TwinPhaser is an invention of alfa romeo s.p.a. in 1982...as JTS now copied by lexus....think that even the GM versions like Saab V6 Turbo or the 3.6V6 High Feature used by Cadillac and recently by other brands like Holden have fiat dna on them.The choice to produce in the all new factory in australia was made bt fiat and gm europe cause was all new...if the matter was the cost they would prefer the canadian plant where the V6 global family is also produced for cadillac models...
V6 Global is a family of V6's developed in JV between Fiat and GM in the period through 2001 and 2004, the alfa v6 jts engine are the most distant relatives of the basic fiat-gm V6 global as use only the same block with the other...but even in the 2.8V6 Turbo developed by Saab named ecotec V6 turbo on vectra restyling or even the high feature 3.6 used by Cadillac and at last by Holden have many fiat cromosomes...it is an engine family developed between both parts of atlantic...the choice of australia for alfa and gm europe engines were cause the factory is totally new...is a choice made for quality if itv was for logistics they would prefer north america..holden has nothing to do with the development...this family comes in three displacements 2.8 3.2 and 3.6 we will surely see a 2.8 alfa but is not yet decided if they will offer the 3.6 too...
All new L4 JTS and V6 JTS families heads are ready to adopt multiair electronic valve control system...
Appart what i say there,is impossible achieve a specific power of 12,5% higher, 300rpm lower(!), without very heavy modifications, that include specific heads and use of state of the art technology like the exclusive stoichiometric gasoline direct injection JTS(Jet Thrust Stoichiometric) and Twinphaser(DualVVT).
aspirated V6 global engines
Alfa 3.2V6 JTS 3195cm3 260cv/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(290nm/1800rpm*)
Cadillac(GM) 3.6V6 "HighFeature" 3564cm3 258cv/6500rpm 339nm/2800rpm
specific power and torque...
Alfa V6 JTS 81,4cv/6200rpm 100,8nm/4500rpm(90,8nm/1800rpm*)
GM 3.6 HFV6 72,4cv/6500rpm 95,1nm/2800rpm
*more than 90% of the max torque from 1800 to 6250rpm.
The new 3.2JTS a sounds excellent the same as the busso 3.2V6(that is euro IV as well), and i own/ed both, and earlier bussos too, to find a busso that sounds better than the current V6 JTS you have to go to the previous euro III and euro II 3.0V6s, the sound difference with older engines is a matter of the emission normatives.
At last i remind you that the busso V6 in 1979 when started it's carrier, was not that monster of power compared to the other 6cylinders in the market, very later we saw this engine real potential with the various Dohc and 4v/cyl upgrades, the new V6 JTS is already in a very good level, and with the predicted power upgrades for my2008 and my2010 with the multiair electronic valve control will surely be where alfa fans expect it, single at the top of it's segment.
The block is important for the engine architecture & weight, but the rest makes the engines soul not the block.Regarding the new Alfa V6 JTS that shares it's block with the various new GM V6 engines i have to say that the choice of having a 60 degrees V and be all alloy make it a proper block for Alfa
For those who complain about new engines and weight
So many years i did not hear any complaint that AR used Fiat's blocks in their ts engines made from cast iron...at least the new blocks have better thermodynamic/torque made totally from aluminium and weight less.Anyway Fiat-Gm powertrain belongs to the past.AR will introduce step 2 of its Diesel/petrol engines and new turbo engines (1.8/2.2JTB.Also until the end of the decade AR will introduce (except new diesel's) new generation of 4 and 6 cylinder engines.For example the new V6 will share common components with the new alfa-ferrari-maserati v8 that it will replace the current v8 with dry sump.The new v6 will easily have a power ratio at 90-100hp/lt under 7000rpm.
New engines were initilally destinated for 2007.....but Brera/159 had to be in the market in 2006 and as result engines were not 100% ready......thats why evolution versions will be introduced in 2007-2008 plus new turbo engines.
Bmw's L6 uses valvetronic while V6 JTS has direct injection JTS,higher spesific power/rpm-torque and homologated with 95Ron.V6 JTS despite the V architecture (which means more weight) and 0,2lt+ compared to the straight L6 weights only 1kg more!In terms of sound nothing can be compared to AR's v6....everything else sounds like an else sounds like a toaster.New V6 has more metallic/brutal sound than 3.2V6 euro4 of Gt coupe with less bass (don't blame AR...blame euro4) which is sth that i have to admit.It has better response in low rpm cause of better torque sth that Busso's V6 was missing and also it has the same brio in high rpm's.According to auto mag it accelarates (0-100) Brera in 6.5sec and in top gear in 6.6sec.This is sth amazing if we consider that 156GTA that weights 220kg less reaches 100km/h (according to auto) in 6.3sec.Also don't forget that Brera's gearbox has long gear ratios....it's second gear dont overcome 120km/h....if it had same gear ratios with 147/156 GTA/GT 3.2 it would easily reach 100km/h in sth slighlty more than 6sec......and weights 220kg more than 156 and 270kg than 147.In terms of performarnce V6JTS is better than busso's v6.For those who compalin about Gm origin,only the block is Fiat-Gm Powertrain.Holden doesn't develope engines,it just constructe's/cast the blocks according to Fiat-Gm's specifications.In the past i did not hear any beefs in British magazines about 6,75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es....and the funny thing is that some bentley owners are complaining about the use of the W12 VW/Audi retrofit....neither of those engines were 100% Bentley.
Alfa 1.9JTS(1859cm3) 160hp
Audi 2.0 130hp
BMW 18i 2.0 129hp
Alfa 2.2JTS 185hp
BMW 20i 2.0 150hp
Audi/VW 2.0FSi
Audi 1.8Turbo 163hp
MB 1.8 Kompressor 163hp
VW 1.4TSI 170hp
AR vs Bmw
1858cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 160hp/6500rpm 190nm/4500rpm(168nm/2000rpm)
'18i' 1998cm3 L4 16v Valvetronic 129hp/5750rpm 180nm/3250rpm
.................................................. .............................................
2198cm3 L4 16v JTS TwinPhaser 185hp/6500rpm 230nm/4500rpm(203nm/2000rpm)
'20i' 1998cm3 L4 16v valvetronic 150hp/6200rpm 200nm/3600rpm
.................................................. .............................................
3195cm3 V6 24v JTS TwinPhaser 260hp/6200rpm 322nm/4500rpm(285nm/2000rpm)
'30i' 2995cm3 L6 24v valvetronic 258hp/6600rpm 300nm/2500rpm
It is true that new generation of AR's need better performances (i dont care for cold performances in boring straights but the excellent new platform can easily handle more horsepower)...yes they are heavy but to be HONEST they are not very heavy for what they offer...
A 4wd 350z would weight more than a Brera 3,2JTS...a similar in length 4wd with glazed roof and similar equipment 350Z would weight 100kgr more than a Brera 3.2JTS Q4...
A similar in lenghth 3 series with similar equipment would have a weight similar to 159...there not too heavy for what they offer in proportion to the competitors..
After engine weight is not important for total weight but is very important for the front axe weight that can increase a cars understeering as happens in the new TT TFSI(even if the total weight is low..that doesn't matters is engine weight that matters) for example or the Golf GT with the TSI engine......
As i said before it is true that Brera 3.2 is a heavy car but we must consider Q4(150KG+)/skyview/bigger dimensions and better equiped than Gtv...but 2.2JTS version that does not have Q4 shows that Brera is not a heavy car at all.According to manual GTV 2.0 40kg heavier than Brera 2.2
GTV 2.0ΤS/JTS commercial brochure 1370kgr DIN manual 1490kgr DIN(1565kgr ECE)
Βrera 2.2JTS commercial brochure 1470kgr DIN manual 1450kgr DIN(1525kgr ECE)
ECE=DIN + 75KG (weight of driver+liquids)
-Multiair 2009
-1.8JTB 200hp (H1/2008)
-1.4TB 120hp & 150hp (>200Nm/1500rpm)beginning of 2007
-2.2JTB beginning of 2008
-2.4JTD second step 220hp/425Nm....2.5JTDm 240hp 2008
-1.6JTD 120/130hp soon available
-1.9JTDm 175hp (H2/2006).........2.0JTDm 190hp 2008
-1.9JTDm TwinStage 200hp 2007........................2.0JTDm TwinStage 220hp
-3.0JTDm 250hp(step 1)/270hp(step 2)/290hp(step 3)
2007-08
-1.9JTS evolution 170hp
-2.2JTS evolution 200hp
-3.2JTS evolution 290hp
WAKE UP and read the below list...and that the block is just the soulless part of the engine....despite most of the R&D is made in italy!!....where the block is casted is sth that does not bother me!
1)Bmw provides Mini with Chrysler engines while has contract on future 4.0lt (1.8-2.2lt) with the PSA(not only the souless block but all the engine R&D will be Psa.....also Mini's diesel is derivered from Toyota.
2)Cayenne uses 3.2V6 the VW with no modification...Porsches high profit with low cost.
3)Ford --> Jaguar/Aston Martin while collaborates with the PSA in Diesel.Jaguar S type uses the engine of Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird.Aston Martin Vantage which costs 120000euro uses the V8 of Lincoln and the 155,000 DB9/250.000 Vanquish use a v6+v6=v12....v6=duratec ford....so sad for those historical companies...whould you like if Ferrari enzo had a v12=v6+v6(from fiat)?
4)Audi Seat and Skoda, same engines with the VW.
5)Diesel of Daimlerchrysler from Vm motori s.p.a
6),75 V8 of Bentley/RR which is just a GM big block 6,75lt retrofit of 50es.
Despite Bmw announced that each other 6cylinder engine with the same hp with it’s own 6cylinder weights 10kg more,AR’s new alouminium V6 weights only +1kg (162kg)
V6 Busso VS V6 JTS
-20kg
+20hp/33nm
JTS
TwinPhaser--> offers 85% of torque between 1500 & 6000rpm & 90% between 2500 & 6000rpm
Platform
The 156 successor before the GM Fiat agreement would use the Fiat Stilo floorpan(called Type C/D) in a version with longer wheelbase and alfa specific suspension architecture, what Alfa gain with this history is the premium floorpan, that is the first exclusive Alfa floorpan since 116.When the alliance started they wanted to use the GM Epsilon floorpan with alfa specific suspensions for the 156 successor and GTV/Spider successors.
In late 2000 started a project between Alfa(fiat auto),Saab(Gm europe) & Cadillac(GM) for an E/F segment high tech modular floorpan(for 166,9-5 and CTS/STS successors) based on a Fiat reserach center patent that would allow flexible wheelbase length,transverse or longitudinal mounted engines and gearboxes, fwd or rwd with just changing one or a couple of modules, Cadillac was the first house to left the project some months after to concentrate on the cheaper rwd Sigma floorpan, in early 2002 a Saab deep in crisis decide to abandon the expensive premium floorpan and expand it's synergies with Opel/Vauxhall in order to cut cost.
Alfa made a brave decision to keep and develop the premium floorpan, but wouldn't come to break even point with 166 successor, so they decided to use a version of the high tech premium floorpan for the 156 successor in order to have the needed volume.In march 2002 in Geneva, Brera concept was presented by Italdesign-Giugiaro, and public loved it, a couple of months after Alfa made a proposal to italdesign to design all the new midsize family based on brera concept style, december 2002 Alfa & Italdesign announced their collaboration.
And as a result of 159's excellent platform...
159 was 1st in all the FIVE dynamique tests of German AMS MASTERTEST...
Stability test in the corner 159 1st.....3 11th....a4 6th...C 7th
Wet Lane Change....159 1st....3 3rd........a4 9th.......C....10th
Lane Change........159 1.....3 3......A4 9........C 2....
Slalom.........159 1........3 3........A4 9.......C 7......
Test reindeer ...159 1..........3 2........A4 11........C 3...
What car is the best in handling in D segment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgTsO6fk ... alfa%20rom eo%20159
Also it won the French mastertest
(BMW 320d,Audi A4 2.0TDI,Jaguar X type D,Peugeot 407 και Renault Laguna)
http://www.mitoalfaromeo.com/Public/dat ... 0051016123 034_Mail0002.JPG
Brera
Clarkson says, "New definition of insanity....someone who looks at a Brera and then buys something else...".....I've never driven a car that less needed its ESP system.
Brera represents the real spirit of AR which is simiral to cars like 1900SS & Giulietta Sprint.
Brera is for someone with automotive education(not for you),wider culture but also is lover of high aesthetics and follows the last tendencies of fashion(of course not for you).But it’s also a trendsetter and fashionvictims will buy it like they did with Χ5/Cayenne or Mini…sorry for being cynical but there is a category of people that don’t care about money/logic and just buy a car in order to be in and follow fashion tendencies…..those people passed from boxster to TT and nowadays they are driving ΜΙΝΙ or SUV(X5,X3,M,Cayenne etc.)
You can't loose or ''buy'' history...for example VW bought bugatti/bentley.Porsche is a makes that is absent from the heroic automotive period & it was given birth from the rib of VW,a mass production constructor.From 356 until 911 uses a technical solution with rwd/rear engine which is the most economic and applicated in city cars like Fiat 500,VW Kaefer,Fiat 127,Fiat 600....not sth appropriate for supercars...also the adoption of boxer engines from 356 has its roots in VW beetle.Why Porsche and in general all hypothetic german premium constructors did not get involved with 4cylinder?.....audi get involved with 2-cycle engine 800cc/1000cc....bmw with 400cc....i am not talking about motorcycles!!The movement in front axis has noble origin,much nobler than that of engine behind/rwd or even classic rwd.Nowadays classic rwd is technically acceptable only for light roadsters with attractive price.Afterwards a serious RWD constructor selects the solution of the gearbox in the rear axis if the engine is in front,or the engine in the centre sth that gives better weight distribution.Fwd was given birth from some of the most prestigious constructors of all time like Duesenberg or Bucciali...There are not so many companies to have produced 16/12 cylinder like AR did in its 96 years of history...recently Porsche reached 10cylinder.
159
Alfa 159:This is one of those cars that’s demonstrably and appreciably better than any other mid-range four-door family saloon. And unlike any Alfa of the past, you don’t have to machete your way through a million inconveniences to find the point. This car does not hide its gold watch up its behind. It is an absolute gem. Jeremy Clarkson for Sunday Times
Alfa romeo is not only cars like 75 or Giulietta....but also cars like 1900 or 2000/2600 berlina refined and with Gt character...Alfa is neither lotus neither lamborghini..alfa is not pure sportiness is like her daughterbrand ferrari is sport combined with elegance and sofistication that's what alfa is about from 1910 to 2005...
159 is a real alfa...probably more real alfa than the rwd 75...and that cause alfa have to be for tradition a class benchmark and 75 was surely nice to drive car but in an very old basis(from '72 Alfetta) and poor in all other aspects even the design wasn't at the height's of alfa's tradition...for me 159 is the first real alfa in d segment for years the first complete d segment alfa since Alfetta(alfa 147 is a real alfa a superbe interpretation of alfasud theme)......all alfa's till 2000/2600 berlina had for exaple state of the art quality..and even more recent giulia was sensibly heavier than a BMW 02...just like 159 over 3 e90...many of alfa classics were very heavy cars even compared to the rivals like for example the late 40's version of 6c2500 or even the first mass alfa the 1900...i think that many loose the point what is really alfa...alfa is not only pure sportiness is a way of sofisticated and elegant sportiness and with the recent models alfa return to it's tradition....
Alfa 159 is a sport sedan not a sportcar neither Giulia 4door or 1900 were sportcars what you want an even sportier car...cause 159 is the sportiest sedan in offer in todays market with less weight(even i don;t think that in normal versions weight was a vaint for classic alfa's...usually weigh more than other cars of it's times)...towards uncompromised...alla cars are compromised except supercars and highend luxury lmousines....and surely 159 is the most uncompromised car in it's segment even if it's compromised as all not handmade cars...
No alfa has never been such an evolutionary brand as you present was more a revolutionary brand...see the succession from handmade cars to industrial from 6c2500 to 1900.....the revolution in design that created contrasts in the alfisti from Giulietta to Giulia....the contrast between alfisti between giulia and alfetta both for technic and design...so it's not something new as you want to present...alfa 159 is a new reinterpretation of alfa spirit much more alfa than 75 or 156 that were really products carismatic surely but born in compromise.. alfa 159 has cues from many models of the past and ofcourse has much of the year 2000..as 1900 was an alfa of 1950 or Giulietta of 1955 or Giulia of 1962 or Alfetta of 1972...the 159 is a real alfa of 2005.. and it is the first real alfa since Alfetta...ofcourse as all cars has advantages and disadvantages nothing is perfect...but at the moment is the best car in it's segment an excellent car the new executive compact benchmark and that's something we had to see in alfa since alfetta.
156 was a carismatic car but missed the grandeur od 159...159 has both the grandeur and the carisma...and is miraculous the way can combine the best handling in segment with the best comfort between the executive compact cars...why have only something when you can have everything....
159 is a charismatic car...and after Fiat Auto had spent an amount in R&D for 159 bigger than that of BMW in 3 e90...you have to consider in overall cost even the cost of the industrialization...alfa has line in pomigliano for 180.000 cars max..BMW for 400.000 3 series 4door and Touring only in Germany..if you consider this you find that in overall cost alfa spend more for R&D of 159 than BMW in 3 e90...so that BMW spended more for R&D in 3 series over 159 is a myth...now the alfa 159 line produce at the 67% of their max capacity with the add of sportwagon and rhd versions and the launch in all markets we hope to arrive at 100%...but the alfa prediction is for max production in 2007 that will be the first complete year.Just some other figures alfa 156 sold slightly over 130.000 cars in 2000 that is the 156 record and sold over 100.000 any year between 1998 and 2001...
Many spoke about prices the price gap between 159 and 156 is smaller than that between 155 and 156...the brand image is better than 1997....the distribution is not the best is still 3 times small in sell points than audi or bmw...but is better than we had in 1997...the sportwagon arrives some months from the launch and not after 3 years...the line up is more complete...the product has higher credibility and has all the cards to make better than 156..
As for granduer expect the obvious carisma of both 156 and 159...alfa 159 is a more important car true grandeur...
159 offers the most complete technology pack in it's segment...double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension the higher torsional rigidity in it's segment, the first car in the world with multisplit floorpan, the faster steering wheel in it; segment, the first car with a line up exclusively with dierct injection engines,the first car in the world with passenger mounted knees airbag,the first car in it's segment with double glazed windows, the most sofisticated 4wd with three differential and central torsen-c in it's segment, high cut gearboxes...the best brakes in the segment...high quality interior with high quality material and the only car except luxury makers to offer pieno fiore leather quality trim.....a car that won the former leader the former benchmark in every single handling or energy safety test...a car that has the record of lane change in it;s segment with over 130km/h....cutting edge alfa technology......
Alfa Romeo 159 offer better handling than anything in it's segment but offers also more comfort than a bmw,audi,jag or mb..sounds strange but is a reality...159 with a suspension with major excursion and also a bit softer than a 3 series roll less(1,2 degrees with standard suspension)...and handles better in all situations ...when you can offer more..handling+comfort...why offer less?...
The multisplit technology premium floorpan is the more advanced steel floorpan that exists in the market...50kgr more in a car about the 159 size is nothing to the advantages it offers...and is surely not the result of a compromise is the most high cost floorpan used by a D segment car would cost less use a traditional floorpan...
Regarding the fuel quality..all modern engines are very sensible to fuel quality...just try to dyno a Audi A3 2.0FSI with 95ron and with 98ron fuel...you will not found more than 159hp in alfa and more than 145hp in Audi with 95ron fuel...all the last hi tech engines like the JTS or the FSI direct injection or the valvetronic elctronic valve control have very high compression ratio(about 11:1) and are realy sensible to fuel quality...so you have differences of up to 3% in power and torque and of 3% in consumption...alfa romeo JTS engines and Lexus new V6(like IS250 one that copys JTS alfa stoichiometric direct injection) engines are the only houses with direct injection engines that declare the data and the performance using the 95ron fuel...bmw or audi in order to declare better figures declare them using 98ron and only at the end of their last page they say with small letters that performance and consumption would be worst..that's not fair cause the performance differ sensibly on fuel quality.
For end alfa 159 is the right car(drive it and compare it to 3 series or IS(that is as heavy as 159 sic)) is the best executive compact actually in market maintain tha important aspects of an alfa and adds new like quality passive safety confort thata are very important to approach more customers from brands like bmw,audi or mb.
159 is a midsize car not alfa high end car...the real high end alfa we will see till 2008 and will be a over 4,9m foordoor coupe' with many synergies with maserati updated lwb premium floorpan a direct rival to cars like CLS and Porsche Panamera.
All cars are bigger and heavier in this segment...is not something that effects alfa 159 but all mass produced cars...
Is FWD but handles better than the best RWD car in the segment and offers standard to the high end version the most sofisticated 4wd in the segment...so i really don't understand you...
Most people consider the 159 a masterpiece of design ofcourse there will be person who don;t like it's design...as there are persons that don't like picasso but that doesn't mean that picasso is not the most important of the 20th century...same consideration for 159...that there are few people that don;t like 159 doesn't mean that 159 is not a masterpiece...
Lighter and more compact D segment in todays market with a descent design and mass production is impossible...
Ofcourse you can offer a car with less equipment as BMW or Audi make in Germany and without double glazed windows and have 60-100kgr less from 159 but that's not the point cause most people would prefer a better equiped car than the naked german trim levels of 3 series or A4...and after all double glazed windows is one of the features that put this car appart from the competition...is a sofistication and a premiere for the segment...and alfa i remind you at least in foor door sedans is not what you want to say...what you want your view of alfa is not alfa but more something like lotus that doesn't make 4door cars...in the 80's or cars were more extreme sporty and vulgar...but that's not the alfa's heritage neither the real alfa....
As i said alfa 159 is by far a more real alfa than any other berlina we had seen in the two last decades....
159 handles far better from 3 series...forget their points at the end of mastertest and give a look in what they measure...alfa 159 with a worst power to weight ratio wins all and five the handling and energy safety tests....3 series was the last of 11 cars in skidpad...so i really doesn't understand, you ofcourse the german press wil search to defend their industry...as for the roll...alfa 159 with standard suspension rolls exactly 1,2 degrees less than 3 series and that is a fact and not an impression...is measured!
The handling benchmark is the 159 has better handling better and faster steer with same turning circle.....the miraculous is that combines confort to handling...is really impressive how a car with worst power to weight ratio handles better..but has to do with the suspension scheme and the chassis...
The 159 and Brera was tested by the same person that make the development of the 612 or the quattroporte or the F139 or the Enzo or the Mc12...not from ordinary people...and all are impressed from the way brera handles..brera q4 handles better than a 911 carrera 4...i know that for some is a heavy thing to say...but 911 is not that technical benchmark has only optimized set up the rest is open to argument...after strangely as size 911 is the most similar car to Brera...441cm the Brera 443cm the 911...183cm the Brera 181cm the 911...and both with really short wheelbase...252,5cm the Brera and 235cm the 911....
Dimensions...
156 was a compromised product as dimensions...cause alfa wanted a 265cm wheelbase dualframe floorpan but at last they had to use an evolution of tipo 2 that couldn't be extended more than 260cm....so they had to make the compromise to make a car a little smaller from what they were wanting...they wanted a 4,5/4,52m car with 2,65m wheelbase and make a 4,43-4,44m with 2,595m wheelbase....so this was a result of a compromise....same compromise for 166 when alfa wanted a 2,8m wheelbase and Cantarella in order to spend less money doesn't let them use an evolution of the Kappa floorpan but constrict them to use the same floorpan with Kappa...so those 156 or 166 were technically compromised cars...surely if were developed as wanted the alfa management would have even more success...
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthr ... 08&page=24
President of Mercedes Benz told in Frankfurt 2003.If AR was able to produce 8c competizione with no limitation in production it will break down Porsche in a few months!!
Speaking with objectivity Cayenne is a Touareg with restyled front/rear end and different interior…everything else is the same as all the mechanical parts except 2 engines….car body of Cayenne is build in Slovak in the same factory with Touareg and then it is send in Germany for the final assembly…... Cayenne is a travestite Touareg.Porsche whether you like it or not is a company that started from low and nowadays maintains in 911 the architecture of city car and pretends of selling supercars.High profit with low cost…..even it’s last model cayman uses a 10years old frame….Negatives in AR’s history are less than those of hypothetic premium brands like audi,bmw,porsche.
)...those are some of the reasons that TT sales drop down so quickly after the initial success specially in Germany.
